Some CFV fun : -)

fotografz

Active Member
Went to an event called the "Woodward Dream Cruise" billed as the world's largest car show ... where classic automobiles of all vintage, custom cars and hotrods commingle and cruise a 10 mile long strip of Woodward Ave. in the Detroit area that was infamous for drag racing. 1.4 million spectators and 40,000 cars, from all points of the compass, attend this "cruise" in a single day.

Weapon of choice: 203FE/CFV-II, 50/2.8FE and 350/4FE, Gitzo Monopod with Hasselblad H quick release. Used a Boda Dry Lens Bag (small) to tote the 350/4FE ... (this bag is a marvel of design and made carrying the big lens for hours a breeze.)

Enjoy:
 

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fotografz

Active Member
A few more: (note the 1959 Caddy shot is a very severe crop, and still needs some additional post work, The remaining imges were basically out of the camera with slight tweaks in PS.)
 

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Thank you for the pictures. They show off the imaging capability of the CFV very, very well. I love the pictures of the hood ornaments. I took similar pictures with a Kodak DCS Pro Back Plus and a 120mm Macro lens and I have to admit that your photos look much better than mine. Did you use the 350mm lens? That's the lens I always wanted to get.
 

fotografz

Active Member
Thank you for the pictures. They show off the imaging capability of the CFV very, very well. I love the pictures of the hood ornaments. I took similar pictures with a Kodak DCS Pro Back Plus and a 120mm Macro lens and I have to admit that your photos look much better than mine. Did you use the 350mm lens? That's the lens I always wanted to get.
The hood ornaments and front grill shots were done with the Zeiss 50/2.8FE ... some @ f/3.5. The 50/2.8FE focuses quite close, and the CFV is a 1.5X crop factor sensor, so the FOV is even tighter.

The 350/4FE was used for the distance shots with the tell-tale compressed backgrounds. The FOV of the 350/4FE using the CFV is about 525mm.
 

blowupster

Member
Happy to see that the 50mm FE is usable with 16Mpix chalenge.
I'm allways surprised to use it at close focus. For my use it's like a macro lens.
I should use it more often outside but it's realy heavy (if you compare to the 60mm 3.5 !).


The 150mm 2.8 use the same "lens body" of the 110mm and this for the limit to focus is present.
 

fotografz

Active Member
Happy to see that the 50mm FE is usable with 16Mpix chalenge.
I'm allways surprised to use it at close focus. For my use it's like a macro lens.
I should use it more often outside but it's realy heavy (if you compare to the 60mm 3.5 !).


The 150mm 2.8 use the same "lens body" of the 110mm and this for the limit to focus is present.
Not as heavy as the 350/4 FE : -)
 

blowupster

Member
BTW 2 questions:
Why not using the 40mm IF you recieved with your CFV ? It should be the top.
What monopod do you use ?

Mine is too light and I rarely use it with Hasselblad.
 

simonpg

New Member
Lovely shooting Marc!!

The selective focusing created some superb 3D views. Even over the web that Again, at a risk of sounding repetitive, the CFV II shows wonderful "brilliance" and film like look without that "plasticity" look I really dislike.

I notice that you also use the H series quick release. I may have mentioned many months ago that I opportunistically bought one for little money and it is just perfect and way ahead of the V series versions.

Thanks for sharing all those terrific images!
 

christian_r

New Member
Hi everybody


Got my Hassy 503 cwd yesterday, boy what a camera!

Took a couple of snappies in my apartment, I'll try to get out today to do some more serious work ;-)
 

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fotografz

Active Member
Hi everybody


Got my Hassy 503 cwd yesterday, boy what a camera!

Took a couple of snappies in my apartment, I'll try to get out today to do some more serious work ;-)
Welcome to the CFV club Christian. Do post photos ... and have fun with your camera.
 

uaiomex

New Member
You guys with the CWD make wish I had this combo.
I've seen many pics from Marc (blue chevy) that leaves me cold. I know, I can't live without a wide angle view, that's why I don't count the CFV as a possible digital back, but you guys "move my rug" (mexican popular saying)

Marc: I presume you have some kind of special relationship with Hasselblad and you know this system like few. Have you heard about the rumor of Nikon coming with 48mm square sensor digital rangefinder? I don't buy it yet, but it made think again about a CFV with a 48mm square sensor.
Would it be possible by any chance?
I know you're going to say "No chance" and I'll go back again looking for another L glass for my Canon dslr's, and now maybe for a Zeiss ZE.

Eduardo


Welcome to the CFV club Christian. Do post photos ... and have fun with your camera.
 

polypal

New Member
Eduardo,


I agree with Wilko it is not a technological thing it is a money thing.

The sensor technology is ready. Look at recent developments from Phase One and from Hasselblad.
Hasselblad even claims it has a full frame 6x4.5 sensor, it is close but it is not full frame yet.

The money thing means you have to look further than the price for an item.
World economy will dictate what happens.
As soon as the world economy is over the current problems photographers will start to invest again.
That will mean larger production at lower prices.
After that new developments will come again.

There are two ways to make full WA angle for 6x6 possible:
Larger sensors or new lenses similar to what happened in 35 mm based DSLR's.
Again a money matter, sorry to repeat that.

Paul
 

uaiomex

New Member
Paul, I basically agree. Just, this reminds me one more time the perpetual question: What was first, the hen or the egg?
Are digital mf high prices high because there is only a small market for it? - Or the small market exists because of the high prices?

I'm sure manufacturers have more knowledge about this than the common photographer, but just imagine the possibility that they may be wrong in their estimates. It has puzzled me for years, why if there are thousands of complete V systems just waiting for the right digital back at the right price, it didn't happen. It was the natural continuation of the trend.
We used to talk about how great it was we had these systems with interchangeable backs. It was a nirvana dream. Film and digital with your very same tried and true camera. Suddenly, the dream started vanishing. Digital backs started showing up at unbelievable prices while dslr's started coming with lower and lower prices with every generation and proving that film was on the verge of being history. Dslr's did it, not digital medium format. These days film is almost history and we still have that perfectly working mf gear still waiting for the right digital back for the right price.

I see in other forums there are people these days speculating about the disappearance of medium format gear. Truth is, dslr's are coming to a golden age. They will never match mf quality but in the meantime the younger part of humanity will be perfectly satisfied with what is achievable by dslr's. They don't know better.
We are printing bigger than ever because the simplicity of formidable inkjet printers. But this could change any minute. People are running out of space to hang big pictures. There is so much information now, that nobody has time to contemplate a fine art print. Enviromentalists demand less printing and more electronic.

Very tough times to all mf manufacturers. No ned to say it again, it's their call. It's up to MF manufacturers to come up with sensitive prices before no one needs the superior quality medium format yields.

Eduardo


Eduardo,
I agree with Wilko it is not a technological thing it is a money thing.
Paul
 

macmx

Member
You have to remember that the large turnaround for DSLR equipment helps price reduction. Whenever someone wants a new sensor, they need to buy a whole new camera, so the manufacturer makes more money. I think, that the thing we love about MF cameras, being able to use the same body and lenses with different backs, is probably the biggest reason behind the high prices of MF digital backs.

Just look at the price they are offering the new CWD kit at. BH prices:

CWD kit = 13,000 USD.

503CW + 40mm Distagon + CFV II = approx. 18,500.

That's over 5000 USD difference.
 

polypal

New Member
Eduardo, Marcus,

I agree with both your opinions.


Would you buy a digital back, any of which you like, at the price of materials
and production costs? No doubt yes. You have to join the line before you.
What will that price be is the question of course.
That price will be about 20-25 % of the actual list price.

Are manufacturers and their dealers making 75-80 % profit.
Of course not they have research and development costs etc.
The profit digital backs generates is 40-50% of the sales price.
That means both manufacturer and dealer have to do with that.

This game is called marketing.
The price products are offered for has little to do with manufacturing costs
but is determinned by what the market is prepared to pay.

Paul
 

fotografz

Active Member
Paul, I basically agree. Just, this reminds me one more time the perpetual question: What was first, the hen or the egg?
Are digital mf high prices high because there is only a small market for it? - Or the small market exists because of the high prices?

I'm sure manufacturers have more knowledge about this than the common photographer, but just imagine the possibility that they may be wrong in their estimates. It has puzzled me for years, why if there are thousands of complete V systems just waiting for the right digital back at the right price, it didn't happen. It was the natural continuation of the trend.
We used to talk about how great it was we had these systems with interchangeable backs. It was a nirvana dream. Film and digital with your very same tried and true camera. Suddenly, the dream started vanishing. Digital backs started showing up at unbelievable prices while dslr's started coming with lower and lower prices with every generation and proving that film was on the verge of being history. Dslr's did it, not digital medium format. These days film is almost history and we still have that perfectly working mf gear still waiting for the right digital back for the right price.

I see in other forums there are people these days speculating about the disappearance of medium format gear. Truth is, dslr's are coming to a golden age. They will never match mf quality but in the meantime the younger part of humanity will be perfectly satisfied with what is achievable by dslr's. They don't know better.
We are printing bigger than ever because the simplicity of formidable inkjet printers. But this could change any minute. People are running out of space to hang big pictures. There is so much information now, that nobody has time to contemplate a fine art print. Enviromentalists demand less printing and more electronic.

Very tough times to all mf manufacturers. No ned to say it again, it's their call. It's up to MF manufacturers to come up with sensitive prices before no one needs the superior quality medium format yields.

Eduardo
A few thoughts:

First, the answer is: the egg came first. Genetics led to the answer. The evolutionary line of birds that led to Chickens culminated in an egg that had a Chicken embryo ... genetic material does not change during the life of an animal.

While there are many V cameras out in the world, the ratio of expense has flip-flopped ... where the major expense once was the gear and the least expense was the media ... it is now the opposite. People that can afford a V system can't necessarily afford a digital back ... any digital back.

Probably the most important aspect of MF digital are the applications. By far, the commercial world is the target audience. We have to remember that these companies are global in scope, and every professional photographer in the world is their target. So, as long as MF digital does provide superior quality it will sell. However, those sales won't necessarily be to those who want it just because they have a MF camera.

Contrary to what you say Eduardo, the makers of MFD backs are doing just fine. Both Hasselblad and Phase One are having excellent years according to my sources.

The gap between the best 35mm DSLRs has been significantly widened ... and 35mm DSLRs cameras have demonstrated the limits of how many pixels can be crammed into a small space ... an issue not facing the MF makers just yet.

But, there is a limit to how much the market will invest in bigger and bigger sensors. If the sky was the limit, we'd have a 56X56 sensor already ... but there is a limit. Consider that the recently announced, true 645 sized 60.5 meg sensor, Phase One P65+ will be over $40,000. does show what that limit may be. This back will be for the few ... and the many will be able to get last year's technology for a fraction of that price (like a P45 for $16,500.)

So, the intelligent path for MF lovers is to take hand-me-downs ... a 22, 31, or 39 meg back for their V camera will probably never be surpassed in Image Quality by any 35mm DSLR ... and if the technology changes for DSLRs, it will change for MFD also ... and a few years afterward will be availble used at a more reasonable price.

So far, no one can afford to lay an egg, or they risk going out business at mach speed ... witness Contax and the N Digital. And Mamiya would be in serious difficulty after trying to provide a reasonably priced digital back for MF lovers ... and may be saved only by the recent association with Phase One.

The single smartest thing Hasselblad did was to merge with Imacon ... that move saved the day.
 

polypal

New Member
Hi Mark,

Thanks for your comment and clear view of the situation.

As soon as the break even point is reached for new products prices will drop.
Simply because there is still a healthy competition between Phase One, Leaf, Sinar and Hasselblad.
It is not a coincidence that all makers of MF digital backs also manufacture bodies and supply lenses
from well known manufacturers for those cameras.
It is their only way to survive in this competitive world.

Paul
 

uaiomex

New Member
Thanks Marc and Polypal for your observations.
I'm glad the MF companies are doing just fine. The more new stuff they sell, the more offer at the used market. That translates for lower prices.

Actually they are showing out now under 13K usd for 22mp untethered. That's more like it. I understand a digital back can go forever, at least in theory.

Let's keep the faith
Eduardo
 

vandevantersh

New Member
The other cost for the back maker is software. With Hasselblad, I have gotten multiple software upgrades and a new software product for "free". With such low volume of production, software development costs can't be trivial.

Steve
 
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